Poppy's Forum

Paul Sanchez

May 13, 08 - 7:05 AM

song writing

For a while now my wife Shelly has been encouraging me to try to teach song writing. She knows I love it more then even playing and also she wants me to do something I love with the extra time i have these days. Things being what they are in my life it would be nice to find a way to have an income without traveling as much.
Surprisingly most places that teach young minds prefer that teachers have degrees and I got mine on stages around the world at the university of rock n' roll.
Fortunately blogs exist and I can share a few thoughts here.
I love a great song, melody and lyric. Any decade and most styles, a great melody and lyric grabs me until the song is part of me.
I feel lost in space and time when I write songs. Nothing comes more naturally to me.
I love poems, novels, films and have been asked many times to write in another medium. I have thought about it and probably will one day but for most of my life I wanted to focus on songs. I had a secret belief that if I stayed true to song writing that I would be rewarded by writing true songs. Like Lancelot and his virginity, Sampson and his hair, I thought this would be my secret strength, my gris gris.
I still believe in song writing as one of the most beautiful forms of simple expression.
The business will do what it will do with your money and some folks are harder business men then others but the songs have a life of their own and every once in a while I meet them again out in the world. A post card from a younger me to the present me which I am always happy to receive even the ones that make me wince because of time, place or poor taste of the day.
Anyway this is supposed to be about writing not how I feel about it but that is sort of the point.
Writing is easy, don't make it hard. Don't think you are making great art and you just might.
I once was in a band when I was young that backed up Bo Didley at a gig. We were excited and Bo had a good enough time to hang out for a bit after the show and offer this advice, "keep it simple and think of church".
Look inside yourself. What you want to say, how you want to say it is right their at the tip of your imagining. It is singing to you in your sleep. The confusion and chaos of being awake and trying to make sense can make a melody or lyric disappear in a blink. If you're writing try and let go of the room, the job, the desire to write. Just be, breathe and let the winds that have whispered songs for a thousand years speak to you.
Also listen to a ton of your favorite music, take walks, look around, remember that the whole world is a song and that all of life is singing it to you every second.
peace,
Paul

p.s.
everything you just read could be wrong.

Mark H

May 13th, 2008 - 7:24 AM

Re: song writing

Just curious Paul. When you are writing a song, do the lyrics usually come first (maybe you have a story you want to tell) or does the music? Or is it simultaneous? Does a story have a sound that just flows naturally with the words? Also, do most of your songs kind of hit you and you knock them out quickly or are they works in progress that take a long time to get to where you want the song to be?

Paul Sanchez

May 13th, 2008 - 8:22 AM

Re: song writing

For me, they seem to come at the same time and you put it well when you said the story has a sound and that sound is the music you are listening for to make it your tune.

Paul Sanchez

May 13th, 2008 - 8:23 AM

Re: song writing

Also most do hit me and won't let go until I've finished them. I know some writers sit on a song for a while but I like to write and keep writing.
peace,
Paul

Simon

May 13th, 2008 - 11:36 AM

Re: song writing

Paul,

I would like to point something very interesting about your song writing that someone said once...

As you know, I hosted a couple of your house shows and 2 seperate people who had never heard your music before commented on the same thing after the 2 different shows...

You would tell your stories and then play your songs and after the show they said, one of the great hings about the music was the imagery was so clear...very close to the story...so simple, so precise...I completely understood what he wanted to say and meant...

I guess that goes to style and what Bo said, but I still maintain that is why I love your musice so much...great melody with perfect imagery...

Or to quote someone else, "this all could be wrong."

Examples: Mannana and the one they both pointed out - Canal St.

Simon

Mitchell

May 13th, 2008 - 12:27 PM

Re: song writing

I wonder if writing is something that can ever really be taught? A teacher can maybe inspire and help in some ways. Tips and words or wisdom never hurt, but like with any kind of art there has to be a certain amount of raw talent and a love to that kinda of art. I can't draw. I tried and tried and tried to learn. Never could develop the skill. I am in awe of anyone that can do a decent job drawing, much less people like my sister-in-law that can make a portrait from a picture.

I love your work Paul and I understand not wanting as much of your life on the road. You probabbly have preformed more gigs in your years on the road than most more famous musician would in a life time.

If you find the right student(s) I am sure your experience and aid will work wonders in helping them understand some process and techinque. There is little that is more noble in this world than encouraging someone to express themselves and help them improve the way they do so. Good luck on your journey!

You never know this maybe a new buisness opportunity for you. Five years from there may be the Paul Sanchez School of Music. You surely have the experience. Just because you don't have an overpriced piece of paper hanging on your wall doesn't mean a thing!

Here is one of my favorite all time quotes:
"No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and to build confidence in the creative spirit." ~ Ansel Adams

Phil

May 13th, 2008 - 3:45 PM

Re: song writing

Paul you always struck me as a Craftsman, a wordsmith. Almost every song just perfectly created to match music and words to tell a story that is clear to all. All of your songs have been memorable to me and I sing along almost every time one comes on (hence the reason I love House shows, lots of people sing along at those!)

So do you collect ideas for songs (so when you have time you can 'write it') or do you just go with what inspires you when your 'writing?'

Paul Sanchez

May 13th, 2008 - 3:57 PM

Re: song writing

I think you know me well enough to know I'm not organized enough to collect ideas. I go with the moment, sometimes a conversation, an image or a word.

Phil

May 14th, 2008 - 10:17 AM

Re: song writing

You've had some GREAT freakin moments!

And I know you have given us Many Great Freakin moments! But I can only write a nice spreadsheet and Joy can write some computer code with a nice beat to it but it doesn't sound as nice as your most spur of the moment compositions. (Like the sweet tea & barbeque song)

I just wasn't sure if you had a different level of clarity and planning for your passions.

Joy

May 14th, 2008 - 11:25 AM

Re: song writing

I think Phil is trying to say my SAS code rocks. ;)

Sorry ... bad joke ... but i couldn't resist ... I'm stuck on a business trip with a bunch of seriously negative people ... I miss my peeps!

Simon

May 15th, 2008 - 10:38 AM

Re: song writing

Paul,

Let me ask you a couple questions about writing:

1) In general, how long does it take to get a song 90% of the way completed?

2) In general, how many rewrites do you do of the lyrics? Music?

3) Let's take "The Key" as an example, in early versions of the song, the chorus was a bit different in terms of the progression...what made you change it? (BTW - love all versions of this song - as you know)

paul sanchez

May 15th, 2008 - 11:43 AM

Re: song writing

1) In general, how long does it take to get a song 90% of the way completed?

Two to three hours. If i dig the song and have the time, I like to let the world disappear and focus on the incoming song.

2) In general, how many rewrites do you do of the lyrics? Music?

During the two to three hours spent writing part of that is cutting lines and sharpening others,. I'll sing it for a few days to make sure it flows and there may be a word or two changed in that process. A complete rewrite is another thing altogether and just as intense for different reasons

3) Let's take "The Key" as an example, in early versions of the song, the chorus was a bit different in terms of the progression...what made you change it? (BTW - love all versions of this song - as you know)

For years I was in a rock band so when I wrote a song it was usually in a higher key then I would have liked to sing it because it's easier to sing over loud amps and drums when you sing higher and louder. I also wrote the song while working with a drummer who had a certain style of drumming so as it formed I was deciding between the folkier version and a more Mouth version that it might have a chance of getting played by the band.
In the end I lowered the Key for The Key, had Raymond Weber swing a groove somewhere between country and the Treme and sang it low like Johnny Cash.

Simon

May 15th, 2008 - 4:07 PM

Re: song writing

This is the best thread ever...Paul, thanks for answering...may have some more questions later on - I have always had a bunch for ya...just gotta remember what they are!

Mark H

May 19th, 2008 - 7:03 AM

Re: song writing

I agree with Simon. This has been quite informative and fun. It's nice to see such an intelligent Q&A with Paul graciously sharing his insights.

Paul Sanchez

May 19th, 2008 - 3:24 PM

Re: song writing

One more thing about The Key and Raymond Weber. Raymond is a world class drummer and a New Orleans drummer. Both often go hand in hand. When he first heard the tune he said' oh, you want a country beat" I said, " no, I want a country beat like Fats Domino would have swung it, New Orleans style". He knew right away what I meant and laid down the sweet groove you hear on the disc. Trying to explain that to a drummer from somewhere else might have taken quite a bit longer.
peace,
Paul

Mitchell

May 19th, 2008 - 10:10 PM

Re: song writing

Professor Sanchez, how did you get started in music and song writing? Do you still play any of the songs you wrote when you first got started?

Paul Sanchez

May 19th, 2008 - 10:18 PM

Re: song writing

You have to earn the title of Professor I think you know, like Professor Longhair.
I wrote my first song at the age of six for the band I had with my friend Tim Maloz. The song was called The Possibilities, that was the name of out band. I kept writing songs after that, I really learned how to play so I could play along with myself singing my songs and the songs I liked by other folks.
I still dig sharing in that way.
peace,
Paul

Paul Sanchez

May 19th, 2008 - 10:19 PM

Re: song writing

I don't play songs from my teen years bit occasionally an old Backbeat fan will ask for something from the eighties and I still remember most of the songs I wrote back then.
peace,
Paul

Mark H

May 20th, 2008 - 7:26 AM

Re: song writing

Just curious about something. Many songs that become big hits have a "hook". Is this something that songwriters are always looking for (if they are trying to sell a lot of units) or is it something that just happens and after hearing it you realize how much it grabs you?

Paul Sanchez

May 20th, 2008 - 8:12 AM

Re: song writing

I've known songwriters who don't care about anything but "the hook", don't put much into their lyrics or their verses as long as they find a catchy hook.
I think as listeners and writers we grew up hearing songs and learning structure by listening. i've known writers who follow a melody, story and song to it's natural place where a chorus or "hook" presents itself naturally. I prefer those songs and those types of writers. That being said I've enjoyed my share of brainless pop in my day.

Mitchell

May 20th, 2008 - 9:31 PM

Re: song writing

I called you Professor Sanchez as a sign of repect. I don't know you personally and I didn't want to be rude by addressing by your first name. It didn't seem proper.

Is there is basic formula for writing a song? If so do you work through each piece as they come to you or usually start with one and go from there?

Does a song has to have a chorus? I can't really think of any songs that don't have a chorus. I can think of a few songs that only have chorus. Um-bop and Lewy-Lewy come to mind.

I was wondering do you play other instruments besides the guitar?

Paul Sanchez

May 21st, 2008 - 8:15 AM

Re: song writing

I was kidding, i love Professor Longhair and am honored to be called the same.
There may be formulas for writing but I don't use them I don't expect a song to present itself in a certain way and I don't demand something go my way.
I hear something in the air, my heart, my head that sounds like an already finished song and I tune in and listen hard for it until i've got the whole thing.
not every song has a chorus. Look through Bob Dylan's catalogue and see the countless songs that don't Bob not only broke the rules of writing, he reinvented them.Tthere is a point to always following a formula but that is only to chase a hit and seldom offers true expression of self. in fact, by it's very nature it is chasing a sound you think others will like rather then chasing the pure sound of your imaginings.
I play guitar reasonably well, a little piano, bass guitar and harmonica.
peace,
Paul

Mark H

May 21st, 2008 - 9:20 AM

Re: song writing

Paul, my impression is that when you played with the band that we won't mention, most of the songs were written by individuals in the band and not a group effort. Correct me if I'm wrong. In that type of environment, with a mumber of the members having the ability to write good songs, how does a band pick and choose who's song to record? I'm sure everyone feels strongly about their own work. In most bands is there usually a consensus as to what to record or is there usually one stong-willed member who ultimately decides?

Simon

May 21st, 2008 - 9:57 AM

Re: song writing

Got another question:

Dancing With Fear - I have been struck by this song from the first time I heard it...great lyrics and melody. What also struck me was how short it is...was that intentional? Is that how it came out? Did you try to stretch it and it didn't work?

Just curious...

Paul Sanchez

May 22nd, 2008 - 12:29 AM

Re: song writing

With a number of the members having the ability to write good songs, how does a band pick and choose who's song to record?
In the early days of the Mouth, for our first two independant records, you really could say the fans chose the songs. We were just starting out so whatever the audience responded to we kept, what they didn't respond to, and I mean right away, we stopped playing.
So on Word Of Mouth and It Means Escape, we presented the producer with the songs that were working in our sets and he chose from there. Once we signed to MCA, a major label, it was all business.
Two years before signing us MCA had bought a small publishing company in Nashville which owned a lot of Fred's older material. when they signed us they presented us a list of songs they already owned the publishing on which is why a lot of the older songs like Jenny Says, Love Of My life, Take me Back To New Orleans made up most of the record, it was so the record company wouldn't have to pay us publishing on the material they already owned. That changed things for the length of our deal with MCA and beyond.

In most bands is there usually a consensus as to what to record or is there usually one stong-willed member who ultimately decides?
Every band is different. Cowboy Mouth was and is Fred's band and ultimately if he didn't want to play a song it didn't get played and if he wanted a song on a record it would be on the record even if we never played it before and there were many songs of his we recorded that we never played live but he wanted them on the record and so they were.
As a songwriter I tried to present the band with songs that were within the context of the band we were and tried to play and sing on the songs of the others within that same frame work.
I had hoped it would be more collaborative and I know many bands who are but this was the way it was for us.
Paul

Mark H

May 22nd, 2008 - 6:50 AM

Re: song writing

Poppy, Thanks for answering all our questions. It's been quite interesting and the reason why this forum is consistently so informative.

Paul Sanchez

May 22nd, 2008 - 7:16 AM

Re: song writing

Dancing With Fear - I have been struck by this song from the first time I heard it...great lyrics and melody. What also struck me was how short it is...was that intentional?
when we went to record the song I had planned to lengthen the between parts and add a solo. Dave Pirner, the producer, had the idea to make it even shorter. He tightened up the turn arounds and cut the song down to bare bones.
Did you try to stretch it and it didn't work?
i think it could have been a lovely piece if it were longer but I like what Dave did with it. The song has something to say, it gets said and the song ends. it's brevity makes the songs lyrics more focused.
peace,
Paul

Simon

May 22nd, 2008 - 9:43 AM

Re: song writing

Dancing With Fear - I agree with you on the power of a short song. I listened to it the first time and I was like...wow, great song...how long was that...it just was interesting...

Another song that has always been the same way to me is King of the Road - short and perfect.

Paul Sanchez

May 22nd, 2008 - 9:47 AM

Re: song writing

King of The Road Is One of my favorite tunes to play.
On Dancing with fear I give all credit to Dave Pirner for keeping it short and focused. He was really cool to work with and produced what I think is the best two records I've ever worked on.
peace,
Paul

Joy

May 22nd, 2008 - 10:31 AM

Re: song writing

That brings up an interesting question. Who's songs do you just love love love to play? We've all heard you cover lots of folks but do you have maybe a top 2-3? And would you say it's b/c of the song/the songwriter/the lyrics/audience response or what?

Scott

May 22nd, 2008 - 1:26 PM

Re: song writing

Paul

I have been fascinated by this thread and thinking about it as I drive and listen to your songs. I know you mentioned writing in another medium one day, I want you to know as I listen to the various stories you have told in your songs about love, life, etc I'm fascinated about the possibility of trying to take the songs and create wonderful characters that could make great short stories or even one great tale.

Also -- I think there are all kinds of venues and organizations that focus on art/music and kids and have grant programs and things that you could tap into if you wanted to get into teaching song writing or something like that. Happy to help if I can on that.

Best wishes from DC.

Paul Sanchez

May 23rd, 2008 - 7:08 AM

Re: song writing

I don't have a favorite though I've had many in my life. I love a great lyric and melody and have learned and remembered as many songs as anyone I've ever met.
I flip through the mental file cards and pick out something that feels like being sung. That can go on for hours.
my favorite song of the years was Shamarr Allen's Meet Me On Frenchmen Street, it is timeless and sounds like a New Orleans standard.
peace,
Paul

Mitchell

May 23rd, 2008 - 12:45 PM

Re: song writing

I am sure somebody else has thought of this but no one has posted it. If you, Professor Sanchez, want some students why not do what some guitar instructors do? I know that both of the music stores in my town offer guitar lessons. Why not in a similar way at a music store or some other venue offer a song writer mentor/producer service? Your body of work speaks for itself. You can write and sing in a diverse number of styles. If want to teach that may be a way to go.

Just by having this thread going it has gotten me back to working on a song (my first ever) that hit me a about year ago. I can't sing well and I don't play any instruments, but it felt good just get this thing that has been floating around inside for so long out of me. It still needs work, but at least I got it started.

I am sure in a city like NOLA there are people out there that just want some help on this kinda stuff or maybe they need a music mentor.

You insites that you have been giving here are like your music. Nothing short of brillant. Thank you for sharing so much the process of your work with your fan community.

Mitchell

May 28th, 2008 - 6:54 PM

Re: song writing

My intent is not to flood your email with songs, but since you started this thread are you willing to help people on songs that they are working? I would assume that you if you accepted submissions that you would be compensated for your insites, opionion, and time?

Paul Sanchez

May 29th, 2008 - 9:20 AM

Re: song writing

I'm sure the opportunity to teach will present itself if I am meant to do so, for now I still love writing.
This thread started by me saying my wife wanted me to teach, I thought I share a few thoughts here and am quite pleased that it has lead to so much discussion.
I have recently become friends with John Rankin.
John is a wonderful singer/songwriter and a virtuoso guitarist. He is also a teacher at Loyola university here in New Orleans. He teaches guitar and a songwriting class. Recently he asked me to speak to a couple of his classes.
I enjoyed the experience and easily learned as much from the students as they did from me. I was most struck with how passionate John is about teaching. He watched his students intensely and was aware of even the smallest bit of progress in each of them. He got truly excited when a student excelled and encouraged them all with the kind of interest one never forgets in a teacher.
That is still how I feel about songwriting, that kind of passion. If I ever feel I can give that intensity to teaching or something else, I will gladly give it. For now, new songs are percolating, I'm working to get Exit paid back so I can move on to the next collection of sounds and songs in my head.
red beans and ricely yours,
Sanchmo

Simon

May 29th, 2008 - 9:33 AM

Re: song writing

On a slight twist to this thread...for some reason, I have always loved the books Jimmy Buffett wrote - particularly Tales of Margarittaville - a short story collection (the golf one is the best). It seems that great songwriters have a knack for telling a story - crazy right? Ever thought about writing a book of short stories?

(Another great short story book written by a songwriter comes from Steve Earle.)

Paul Sanchez

May 29th, 2008 - 9:51 AM

Re: song writing

I have thought about it and may some day.
i do have some tales to tell.

Mitchell

Jun 4th, 2008 - 7:05 PM

Re: song writing

When you write the music for your songs do you hear it in your head with all the instruments playing or it is kinda like a melody and then you figure out which instruments to add later? One of my favorite songs on you new album is "hoob a joob" I love all the brass instruments it just screams classic New Orleans song. Anyway, when you wrote it was it with the brass instruments in mind or was that added later? I honestly couldn't imagine that song sounding as fun without them.

Paul Sanchez

Jun 5th, 2008 - 12:54 AM

Re: song writing

Usually the thing that comes through most clearly is the words and melody.
The arrangement is the result of time, place and collaboration.
Interesting that you would single out Hoob-a-joob.
Mostly I let songs take the form and flow in which they came to me.
For whatever reason, I had Hoob-a-joob around for years in the form of an up tempo country song. When it came time to record the song I thought that the original, up tempo version of the song was more suited to a drinking song.
I also was using the record as a musical road map back home and wanted to make the song feel more like a New Orleans tune. I did something I almost never do, I rewrote the melody. I spent a couple of weeks absorbing the songs and phrasing of Fats, Professor Longhair and Doctor John, among others.
I altered the melody and phrasing until it was a bit looser and gave the groove over to a second line which is as much a credit to the wonderful drumming of Raymond Weber as it it to how I heard the song.
red beans and ricely yours,
Sanchmo

Simon

Jun 5th, 2008 - 10:06 AM

Re: song writing

Two Things:

1) Love to new Hoobajoob, but also would love to have heard what it was going to be in the other version...I have heard it in living room shows...would it have been like that with a Country instumentation?

2) Songs like Ain't It A Shame, which seems to have been written for Rob - were those written differently - meaning, when you write for someone else - is there a different take?

Paul Sanchez

Jun 5th, 2008 - 12:26 PM

Re: song writing

There are plenty of Hoob-a-joob recordings out there from the last couple of years of house Concerts, ask and someone will send you a copy.
when i write for someone else's voice, I definitely hear them in my head. i try to make the words something they would feel comfortable saying and I try to shade the melody to resemble their phrasing as I hear it.

Simon

Jun 5th, 2008 - 12:33 PM

Re: song writing

Thanks Paul - I have a couple copies of Hoobajoob...so, I am good...just was curious on the sound.

Is there one song you wrote for someone else that you are really proud of?

Mitchell

Jun 5th, 2008 - 4:14 PM

Re: song writing

Youtube video of Paul singing hoobajoob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSWC7trEHzM&feature=related

Thank you for the bried explaination on the video. I am laughing at myself for missing the meaning of the content of the song. It is hidden well beneth music. Still love the song! I usually love your music just as much solo (if not more) as I do studio/with a full band, but this one I like having all the brass. Great either way!

Paul Sanchez

Jun 5th, 2008 - 5:04 PM

Re: song writing

Hootie's version of Leaving on Looking For Lucky was pretty exciting. Making Between Friends was such a lovely experience that I love each song and performance and couldn't choose a favorite. They all sang the songs so beautifully and each person's approach was different so I enjoy them each in different ways.

Mark H

Jun 6th, 2008 - 1:01 PM

Re: song writing

Looking for Lucky was a superb CD that was overlooked by many. Leaving was one of the best, if not the best, songs on the disc. Hootie did a wonderful job with a song that deserved more recognition than it received.

Mitchell

Jun 24th, 2008 - 5:44 AM

Re: song writing

I do have another question about song writing. How do you know that the melody to the music you are writing isn't something that you heard somewhere else? I am not a singer, but I do from time to time make up silly songs on the spot to sing to my kid. I don't know were the tune came from, but usually assume that I it is something that I heard somewhere that works with words at the time. I have several of these melodies that seem work well and some of them I have known for years and years.

Paul Sanchez

Jun 24th, 2008 - 7:47 AM

Re: song writing

It happens, even to good song writers. If the melody I'm writing sounds familiar to another song, I tend to I alter it but some writers let it slide.
Check out the end of the Rod Stweart song, "the Killing Of Georgie" , the end cods is Rod singing, "stay Georgie stay, don't go away". The melody he is singing is exactly the melody for "Don't Let Me Down" by John Lennon.
Paul Simon's classic song, "American Tune" takes it's melody from a classical spiritual, "O Sacred Head Now Wounded". There was a song of Fred's on one of the Mouth records, called "Run To Me", the melody and much of the lyrics are straight out of a song by Queen called "Fly To Me", "spread your wings and fly away, fly away, fly away".
So, as I say it happens, to my knowledge I haven't released anything that was clipped from someone else but maybe I'll rewrite the Paul Simon song, I always liked that melody.
peace,
Paul

Mitchell

Jun 24th, 2008 - 8:56 AM

Re: song writing

Wow! I listen to "Run and Away" and "Spread Your Wings" back to back and the chorus melodly is clearly the same. I had never heard that song by Queen before. Thanks again Prof. Sanchez!

Mitchell

Jun 24th, 2008 - 10:44 AM

Re: song writing

sorry I made a typo there I listened to "run to me" and "spread your wings" (according to Rhapsody that is the title of the Queen song Prof. Sanchez was refering to.)

Simon

Jun 24th, 2008 - 1:02 PM

Re: song writing

Paul,

Any more recent country artists that have really piqued your interest? (I have been very impressed with Big and Rich - particularly the John Rich stuff - until he did Nashville Star...)

Simon

Paul Sanchez

Jun 24th, 2008 - 1:33 PM

Re: song writing

Sorry I got the title of the Queen song wrong, there goes my professorship.
My favorite young country band is called The Eli Young Band from Texas. They just got signed to Universal Nashville.
A song writer in Nashville who is a fan of my stuff re-wrote Jet Black and Jealous and this young band is doing it on their major label debut. I'm excited to be included in a young artist's work and thrilled that someone in the music business was honest enough to give me credit for and pay me for sharing the use of my song. Considering the fact that the band I played in for sixteen years is still playing and selling my songs and won't give me a nickel that makes this fellow pretty remarkable to me.
Either I've found the one honest cat in the music business or I had the misfortune of trusting some truly shameless rogues for most of my career.
Either way I wish great things for the Eli Young Band and Carnival Publishing.
peace,
Paul

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